Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

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Julien
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Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Julien » Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:22 pm

Greetings,
I finally got around to attempting to use my 193 plow, and the old 49' Cub decided to stop running as soon as I lowered the plow to the ground via the hydraulic lift. It was hard to tell what was going on, as I had been able to lower and raise the plow no problem in the garage. The tractor had started just fine and throttled up without any issue. I had just topped it off with hydraulic oil the day before. As I am new to using the plow, I was wondering if I am not using the lift properly or something. What is the effect that the hydraulic system has on the operation of the engine? Also, during the 30 minutes that it took to get the tractor running well enough again so that I could get it back into the garage, I noticed on a few attempts, when I would bring the throttle all the way up, the engine would be running fine up until the last point on the throttle, and as soon as I throttle up, it would immediately stall out. I am not sure what this is an indication of.

Thanks for your help,
Julien

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Eugene » Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:31 am

I read your previous posts. I didn't see a complete engine tune up. Start the tune up with compression tests.

Hydraulic system takes a small amount of power from the engine when no load is applied. More engine power, depending on load size, when applying a load,

Guess. Stalling out when throttling up, ignition problem. 30 minutes to get tractor restarted, faulty coil, a guess.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby staninlowerAL » Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:42 am

Agree with Eugene, a complete tune up including check the valve lash. I could not determine much info about your cub other than it's a 1949 so a more complete description would be helpful, i.e. magneto or battery ignition system, 6v or 12v conversion and if conversion how was it done, etc. Any changes from original will have to be addressed when you consider working on your cub. JMHO Stan
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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby inairam » Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:03 am

As was said do a tune-up. I would suggest including adjusting the valves.

It could be an issue with the TC but start with the engine. The only way to isolate the engine from the TC/hydraulics is to disconnect the pump.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Julien » Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:31 pm

Thanks for the suggestions regarding the tune-up. A local expert looked the tractor over before I obtained it, so I didn't think a tune-up would be necessary. Also, I have no idea how to do a tune-up since this is the first engine I have ever worked on. I assume there is plenty of info on here regarding checking the valves, doing compression tests, and such, so I'll start there.
From what I know, the 49' Cub is as original with 6v battery. The only thing that I did to it when I got it was to replace the original carburetor which was cracked and leaking with an after-market one.
Another thing that happened recently was that I added gas to the tractor which may have been too old and the tractor died while using it and took forever to start up again. The carburetor was flooding like crazy without being choked. My neighbor suggested the older fuel could have been the problem and gave me some fuel additives. Since that time, while the tractor is starting up better and running fine, it doesn't seem to have as much power as it did before.
How long is it necessary to warm up the tractor before taking it out for its intended use? The most I did in this case when getting ready to use the plow was to throttle it up all the way and leave it for a minute or so. I looked at some other posts and it seems like if the engine is too cold, using the lift can kill it.
Thanks,
Julien

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby akguy09 » Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:51 pm

Shouldn't need that much warm up time. Last night at 90 degrees, started my cub, adjusted my butt in the seat and raised my grader blade and pulled out of the barn, probably all in less than a minute.

staninlowerAL
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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby staninlowerAL » Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:55 pm

Tuneup is best described as checking/cleaning or replacing the plugs, points and condenser as well as checking/adjusting the valves as needed. All part of routine maintenance on the C60 engine. The owners manual will give specific instructions and this forum is always ready to answer specific questions. A 1949 Cub probably would have come with a magneto, not too difficult to clean, service and adjust. Just learn about how it works before you take things apart. GSS 1012 service manual is the authority on the ignition systems (magneto and distributor/battery) and will tell you everything you need to know to keep your Cub's ignition system in top shape. Warmup is determined a lot by the ambient temps. It is normal for needing a partial choke for a few minutes (or less) on a cold day on initial startup. That just enriches the fuel/air mixture manually. Also if the engine tries to stumble or hesitate when loading up, then adding a little choke helps with the RPM recovery could be an indication of not getting enough fuel. Try cleaning the main jet with carb cleaner and compressed air. Search the HOW TO subforum/FUEL topic for some good tips and advice.
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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Eugene » Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:58 pm

Julien wrote:A local expert looked the tractor over before I obtained it, so I didn't think a tune-up would be necessary. Also, I have no idea how to do a tune-up since this is the first engine I have ever worked on.
Do the tune up yourself. One task at a time. Then run engine to see if you made a mistake. Information in owner's manual and ask for help on this site.

Do you know what the local expert checked, corrected, or tested?

If you can, go to a Cub Fest. There will be lots of hands on help from experienced experts who know Cubs inside and out.

1949 Cub. If this tractor came from a farm, it's on it's second or third engine rebuild and probably ready for another rebuild.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Glen
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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Glen » Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:10 pm

Julien wrote: As I am new to using the plow, I was wondering if I am not using the lift properly or something. What is the effect that the hydraulic system has on the operation of the engine?

Hi,
The Touch Control should work anytime the engine is running, and not stall the engine, unless maybe the engine is cold and running at slow speed.
The Touch Control fluid is thicker when the engine is cold, and it takes more power to make the arms move than when the fluid is warmed up and thinner.
The Touch Control system is made so the arms work slower when lowering them, and it takes more power to lower the arms than to raise them, that is when nothing is connected to the arms, or light loads connected to the arms.
Jim B. has said that is so the system doesn't drop the implement too fast.
It does load the engine some to lower the arms. When the engine is cold, that can make it stall if the choke is not adjusted to the amount it needs to keep running.
It can load the engine to lift heavy implements.

It needs more choke when cold and you put a load on the engine, than when the engine is just sitting there running with no load.

Julien wrote: The only thing that I did to it when I got it was to replace the original carburetor which was cracked and leaking with an after-market one.

Putting on a new foreign made carburetor can be the cause of why it doesn't run right.
They have said on here that some of the foreign made carbs have the float level set to the wrong height, and they need setting when new, before putting them on the engine.
Setting the float level exactly is important, people on here have said their Cub wouldn't run right until they set the float level exactly.
You have to take the carb apart, and measure it to know if it is right.

There is another problem that some of the foreign carbs have, one hole inside them is not drilled.
It is easy to see it when it is apart.
Yours may not have that problem, a Cub with one of those usually hardly runs before having the hole drilled in it.

The engine should have a compression test to know if that part of it is good, or wornout.

There are many things on a used tractor that can't be seen before you buy it.
You can't see if the spark plugs are fouled on the bottom of them, where the spark is, or if the ignition points are old and burned. Both of those things can make it start hard, or not run good.
Cub engines have ignition points, they get old and burned from use.
The point surfaces need to be clean and flat so they work right.
They can be filed, or if they are too burned, they need replacing.
You have to take the magneto or Battery Ignition unit apart some to replace the points and condenser.

Below is a listing at TM Tractor for new points and condenser, you can look at the pics.
There are pics of a magneto and a Battery Ignition unit on the page, you can identify which one the Cub has.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/el/367fp.htm

The spark plug wires can get old, and not work as good as when they were new.

The ignition timing is important, the engine won't have as much power as it should if the timing is wrong. It can be adjusted following the right method. :)
Last edited by Glen on Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Glen » Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:00 pm

Hi,
The Cub owner's manual can help you learn about maintenance that the Cub needs.

Below is the 1949 Cub owner's manual. The experts on here recommend people read it. It has lots of info about operation, maintenance, and lubrication. There is a table of contents on page 1.
It shows how Cubs originally looked in it. The lube section begins on page 14.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... index.html

It shows the electrical system that a 1949 Cub originally had.
Cubs made before mid 1964 originally had 6 volt, positive ground electrical systems.

It shows how to replace the points and condenser, and set the point gap, for the magneto, it's important that the points have the right gap.
You need a flat feeler gauge to set the gap.
A 1949 Cub came with a magneto.
The Battery Ignition unit came out during 1950, and some Cubs were changed to that.

It shows how to replace the spark plugs and set their gaps, it's important they have the right gaps.

The 10 weight motor oil mentioned in the manual for the Touch Control was changed later to Case IH Hy-Tran fluid. It is sold at Case IH dealers.
There are other brands, be sure it works with IH hydraulic systems before buying one.
The manual tells how to check and change the Touch Control fluid, and remove the air from the system.
Be sure to check the fluid with the arms in the rear, or down position, the manual says.

I would check or change all the oils before using the Cub. Using it with low oil in a gear housing can damage the parts in the housing.
There are 3 separate gear housings, with 3 separate oil levels to check, in the rear area of a Cub, the transmission, and 2 final drives.

The transmissions in Cubs commonly get water in them, from rain, or condensation inside the housing over time.

The air cleaner is an oil bath air cleaner. Dirt that is sucked in settles to the bottom of the oil cup. It should have clean, light motor oil in the oil cup to work right.

On page 28 it tells how to oil the fan hub, something often not checked, people on here have said.
They can get low if nobody checks them, then the fan bearing can wear, or the fan can seize up.
I use a pump oil can to put clean, light motor oil in the hub.
Be careful to not lose the small gasket that should be on the oil filler screw, it might be stuck on the hub.

There is a search box at the top of the page, to the right of the Farmall Cub, you can find info in posts that have been made. :)

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Waif » Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:23 am

Julien wrote:Greetings,
I finally got around to attempting to use my 193 plow, and the old 49' Cub decided to stop running as soon as I lowered the plow to the ground via the hydraulic lift. It was hard to tell what was going on, as I had been able to lower and raise the plow no problem in the garage. The tractor had started just fine and throttled up without any issue. I had just topped it off with hydraulic oil the day before. As I am new to using the plow, I was wondering if I am not using the lift properly or something. What is the effect that the hydraulic system has on the operation of the engine? Also, during the 30 minutes that it took to get the tractor running well enough again so that I could get it back into the garage, I noticed on a few attempts, when I would bring the throttle all the way up, the engine would be running fine up until the last point on the throttle, and as soon as I throttle up, it would immediately stall out. I am not sure what this is an indication of.

Thanks for your help,
Julien


Robbing a couple horsepower from your engine will as you found cause a loss of power.
There is a delicate balance within specs for it to be most efficient.

When Glen mentions you changed the carburetor , stop there and research how a carb should be set up .installed , and adjusted.
And an install means adjusting linkage to the governor (Edit per Don's bringing it to my attention the Magneto is not the target, linkage to "Governor" is. Thank you Don.) Did you do that linkage adjustment after carb install correctly?

This site has all you need to research for basic specs and how to get them established.
Don't change anything else until you backup and confirm the changes you already made are the most efficient.
Burn the best fuel for your tractor. Not iffy fuel or poor quality fuel.
You're not working with much horsepower. Why make it worse?
We can drink out of mudpuddles too. But there's a reason we don't.

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby CapeCodCubs » Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:57 pm

Probably the pressure relief value in the hydraulic reservoir. I had the same problem. There is an early post by me on this forum.
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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Eugene » Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:12 pm

Compression tests. I think we said that. Engine will appear to run fine with 70 psi compression. But, that's barely enough to pull the tractor, let alone a plow.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Julien » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:49 pm

As always, thank you very much for the thorough answers. I have my work cut out for me this winter researching, checking oil levels and doing maintenance.

It seems as if she is a temperamental and cold blooded girl. Since last writing, I took the tractor out two times to try to use the plow again, and these times, there was no issue at all. I'm not sure what was different.

The cub did come from a farm, but it seems as if they took pretty good care of it, and the last several years it was sitting in the barn. Hard to say how many times if at all the engine has been rebuilt, and there is no way to know now, since the guys who actually used it have passed on, and the ones I bought it from don't really know anything about Cubs. From what I know, the local expert who looked at it was mainly tasked with getting the tractor to run, which apparently it did right away once he put new gas in it. He changed the battery, replaced a tire, staked the pto shaft, changed the oil, and sent it my way.

My neighbor did mention that the float in the carburetor could be an issue, so that is interesting to hear that it is a common problem with the foreign carbs. Would it be worth rebuilding the older carburetor rather than continuing to use this after market one? I believe the only issue with it was that the case had a crack in it.

Is there a Cubfest in PA? I would love to check one out.

Regarding the linkage to the governor, I had not heard of those until now. The carburetor replacement was done with the help of my neighbor who is a retired mechanic. I didn't look at any Cub specific info regarding the replacement, but I certainly will now. Thanks for pointing that out.

Julien

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Re: Losing power when using plow with hydraulic lift

Postby Don McCombs » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:45 am

The is no Cubfest in PA, but there is one in Oxford, NY the end of this month. It's about 1.5 hours North of you. Here is a link. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=112461
PM Cecil to get more details.
Don McCombs
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