Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973
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Lt.Mike
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Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:43 pm

I’m moving forward with power angling the A60 blade I’ve mounted to the front of my SA.
Today I went out to do a couple tractor related things, mounted the weights on Paula’s cub and I decided to pull the SA out of the shed to measure the blade bow to frame from lock to lock, canting left and right. I did that to see if a 10” ram would be enough to accomplish it. It will but I found a problem. I turned the front wheels to full lock, left or right, doesn’t matter the wheel that’s turning in makes contact with the “bow” shaped portion of the plow frame. I wanted to see if the wheel would clear a ram but didn’t expect this. The mounting position on the bottom of the A60 frame that holds the bar is pointed down like an early cub frame. I noticed it’s not straight and cants back a little. I will disconnect it tomorrow and turn it around so it cants forward. That should move the plow frame forward about an inch. Will it be enough???
Plan “B” may be to add a piece by removI got the bracket the bar goes through and bolt up a heavy and gusseted piece of angle iron to bolt the bar mount to which would kick it forward like a Lo-Boy L54 mounting frame. That should move the frame forward so that the tires don’t rub but would that create another problem?
Also I find it hard to believe the tolerances were made this close it it would have interference issues in a factory setup.
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:09 pm

Can you post a couple pictures so we can see the problem?

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Lt.Mike
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:47 pm

Having a time getting a pic uploaded and the correct link to upload here. :roll:
Don’t have access to my laptop right now but I will say the frame on this may look crusty and rough but it is very straight. I have two of these blades and compared dimensions and they match up. The frames from the bar to the bow commonly bend arching upward. The PO welded an angle iron piece to each side which may not be factory but it is a good idea and will stay.
In this pic (which I will edit in) the right tire is actually touching the frame. If I cant the blade to the left and turn the wheels to the right the left side connects as well.
OK Here'sthe pic...
I tried to circle the lower bracket where the bar goes thru connecting the plow frame to the mounting frame hanging under the bolster.
The bracket actually locates the bar a little behind center of the mounting bars coming down from the center. Its held by two bolts and tomorrow I'll remove it and turn it around to relocate the bar a little forward of center. That might be only 1" but we've seen before what a difference 1" can be.

Image
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:29 pm

I think the lower bracket is normally symmetrical, so it shouldn't matter which way it is mounted. I don't have one here to look at, so maybe I am wrong. When you get it unbolted so you can get a good look, I think you may find it has been sprung. I think reversing it is a good thing to try. I also wonder if there is something off kilter back on the mounting frame (plate that bolts to the bell housing or the 2 axle braces that go from the plate forward towards the lower bracket). The effect could be to move the pivot axle hanger (where the lower bracket bolts).

If all the above doesn't cure the problem, you could look at the track width setting of the front wheels. I notice you have adjustable front rims. Setting them to a narrower position might add a little clearance. You also have an adjustable front axle. Setting it out one position would add some clearance as well. (I know it sounds strange to suggest both setting the rims narrower and the axle wider to address the same problem.)

inairam
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby inairam » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:34 am

Mike,

just a comment If you have the blade yawed that much to the right you probably do not want to be turning the tractor left that much while plowing. If you raise the blade is there still interference?

I was going over my blade last weekend. This is the first time I am mounting a blade it on a bigger tractor. The mount is on the tractor and I went over the blade but did not mount the blade to the mount yet. It is on a 140 but I will take some pictures this weekend. I also must have a "newer" one. I have a spring in the lifting arm.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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Lt.Mike
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:54 pm

inairam wrote:Mike,

just a comment If you have the blade yawed that much to the right you probably do not want to be turning the tractor left that much while plowing. If you raise the blade is there still interference?

I was going over my blade last weekend. This is the first time I am mounting a blade it on a bigger tractor. The mount is on the tractor and I went over the blade but did not mount the blade to the mount yet. It is on a 140 but I will take some pictures this weekend. I also must have a "newer" one. I have a spring in the lifting arm.

Up or down it hits and there are times when I plow I do turn the wheel sharply as in when i taking "bites" with a heavy snow or pulling snow away from landscaping or a garage door.
I went over it better today.
Here's another shot of the wheel rubbing. Notice the pin is out because with it hitting I can't drop it in the last hole.

Image

This is the lower bracket the bar slides thru. It appears to cant rearward so I thought if I turn it around it would move the blade frame forward.

Image

Nope, that part was actually straight. The mounting frame is twisted and has a weld repair on the bottom right corner.
The weld was made with it twisted so I not going to try and straighten it for fear of breaking the weld.
Image

"Plan B".
This is my solution. Both A60 plows I have, have identical mounting frame configuration though the other frame has the pressure spring rod assembly (needs repair). Its lower frame has a weld repair too. Could be a sign of a weak area in the plow design.
Both mount the plow to the mount with the bracket facing down like the early versions of the Cub 54 blade assemblies like the one below mounted on Paula's '52. (second gen plow I got from Coppersmith, Val Adams :hattip: )

Image

Below are the later versions of the Cub Blade mounts, One for the F-Cub, and one mounted on my Lo-Boy.
You can see how the bracket is repositioned forward and boxed together being much stronger.

Image

Image

This is what I'm going to replicate by taking 2" angle iron cut to length, box the ends and drill 4 holes. This way its an addition and not further modifying it from its original form. This should kick the whole assembly 4" forward and I. guessing will also result in more lift for the plow.
I'll report back of course if it added the needed clearance.

Oh One more thing I did just for fun. I noticed with full down pressure on the plow the front tires lifted slightly so I raised the plow and put blocks under. It lifted the front wheels off the ground like a back hoe! I tried this with my Cubs and they didn't have the power to do this.

Image
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Jim Becker » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:13 pm

I think your approach to a fix is reasonable. You will want a pretty heavy (thick) angle iron to make your piece. After all, look at how heavy the existing frame is, and it bent. I notice the hole in the lower bracket is worn egg shaped. So even if that bracket isn't bent, reversing it would have helped a little.

When I am plowing, I also end up making hard left turns while the blade is angled to the right. I start at the garage door going crosswise left to right in front of the door. I make additional passes, each farther from the door. When I get below the apron, i occasionally make my pass across then swing left to clean up in front of the accumulated pile and crowd it back a little more.

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Lt.Mike
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1 - ‘48 (5641) Allis Chalmers G
Location: Farmingdale NJ

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:09 pm

Jim Becker wrote:I think the lower bracket is normally symmetrical, so it shouldn't matter which way it is mounted. I don't have one here to look at, so maybe I am wrong. When you get it unbolted so you can get a good look, I think you may find it has been sprung. I think reversing it is a good thing to try. I also wonder if there is something off kilter back on the mounting frame (plate that bolts to the bell housing or the 2 axle braces that go from the plate forward towards the lower bracket). The effect could be to move the pivot axle hanger (where the lower bracket bolts).

If all the above doesn't cure the problem, you could look at the track width setting of the front wheels. I notice you have adjustable front rims. Setting them to a narrower position might add a little clearance. You also have an adjustable front axle. Setting it out one position would add some clearance as well. (I know it sounds strange to suggest both setting the rims narrower and the axle wider to address the same problem.)

Jim your right, I completely forgot that I have the option of adjusting the front wheels and axles :oops: I’ll chalk that up to the brain fog you can get when working on your own equipment. I guarantee if it was my neighbors tractor it would have been obvious to me. :roll:
I’ll still try the bracket relocate first. Getting those axles to slide most likely won’t happen without a fight. But, it an option thanks !
Quote by Gary Pickeral I like
"If it can cast a shadow, it can be restored"

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Lt.Mike
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Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:38 am
Zip Code: 07727
Tractors Owned: 1 -'58 International Cub Lo-Boy
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1 - ‘41 Ford 9N with a ‘49 8N Engine
1 - ‘48 (5641) Allis Chalmers G
Location: Farmingdale NJ

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:10 pm

Jim Becker wrote:I think your approach to a fix is reasonable. You will want a pretty heavy (thick) angle iron to make your piece. After all, look at how heavy the existing frame is, and it bent. I notice the hole in the lower bracket is worn egg shaped. So even if that bracket isn't bent, reversing it would have helped a little.

When I am plowing, I also end up making hard left turns while the blade is angled to the right. I start at the garage door going crosswise left to right in front of the door. I make additional passes, each farther from the door. When I get below the apron, i occasionally make my pass across then swing left to clean up in front of the accumulated pile and crowd it back a little more.

Exactly!
I hate the idea of the frame capturing the wheel when I’m close to a door. This thing is a bear compared to a Cub and could potentially do some damage.
Our local iron works closed its doors from its original location 5 miles away and built a new huge warehouse right on my road a stones throw away :) . They have anything I could want and their prices are pretty reasonable.
I’ve been in there a couple times a month since becoming my neighbors.
Quote by Gary Pickeral I like
"If it can cast a shadow, it can be restored"

inairam
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Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby inairam » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:23 am

Mike

You got me all worked up about this. I had not thought of this as a problem. I just found a pic of the front end and my front axle is moved out but I have the larger wheels/ tires. Hopefully, I will not have this problem.

Good luck. I also think you have a good plan. I would try to minimize the pushing forward of the blade to give your tires clearance. It just does not take much to lighten the rear wheels. The more leverage the blade has the less weight on the rear.
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Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Urbish » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:42 am

Could you replace this plate or weld a heavy tang on it with a hole so that the supports going forward to the belly cradle get shoved forward? That would buy you some extra clearance. I had this same issue with my '48 Cub owing to my plow pivot points being sloppy. So I used a longer plate between the implement mount and the supports. Worked great!
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Lt.Mike
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1 - ‘41 Ford 9N with a ‘49 8N Engine
1 - ‘48 (5641) Allis Chalmers G
Location: Farmingdale NJ

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:24 pm

Urbish wrote:Could you replace this plate or weld a heavy tang on it with a hole so that the supports going forward to the belly cradle get shoved forward? That would buy you some extra clearance. I had this same issue with my '48 Cub owing to my plow pivot points being sloppy. So I used a longer plate between the implement mount and the supports. Worked great!

That would slant the mounting frame forward and change how the force from the plow is directed back into the torque tube.
I'll see what my part I'll make up does then try adjusting the wheels next and if I have to I'll widen the axles.
I really don't want to widen it because its tight enough squeezing it into the shed it shares with 2 other tractors and an Exmark zero turn.

* here's a tip: You can see in the photo of the lift assembly I have drilled and pinned the connecting bolt. In fact once this has been properly restored it will have longer bolts that are thru bolted on all of the blade assembly that are on pivot points. It saved me from walking up and down a snowy driveway or fishing for replacement bolts in the barn when they work loose. Raising and lowering the plow will loosen and bolts that secure two parts that have even the slightest bit of movement. There's a lot to watch when plowing and constantly checking bolts can't be one of them.
Quote by Gary Pickeral I like
"If it can cast a shadow, it can be restored"

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Lt.Mike
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Tractors Owned: 1 -'58 International Cub Lo-Boy
2 - '46 International A's
2 - '52 Farmall Cubs
1 - '53 Farmall Super A
1 - ‘41 Ford 9N with a ‘49 8N Engine
1 - ‘48 (5641) Allis Chalmers G
Location: Farmingdale NJ

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:06 pm

OK, I’ve been busy the last two days with getting a cat to the vet, running errands but I did manage to get to the iron works and get some fabrication done. As long as I was at it I picked up a 8” x 60” x 3/16” steel plate. I located the plate on the blade and marked the locations for the holes, drilled them, ground the burrs, rounded the corners and dulled all the edges.
Ever walk into a grader blade? If your lucky it’ll only cut your pants. ;)
So with that done I bolted it up and my snow blade is 90% done. All that’s left with that is to give it its curve and paint. I plan on using my shop press and a Cub blade as a form to give it the curve the factory snow extension plate had.
Ok on the bracket. I bought 2” x 1/4” angle iron for that. It will work but having made most of the part I’d go with 2-1/2” x 5/16” angle.
I bolted the bracket I made up and it kicked the plow frame 3-1/2” forward. The interface issue is no more ! There’s probably 2-1/2” to 3” between the frame and tire now. Kicking it forward did lift the plow as well. All the way down as it was setup before it has an inch of air under the blade.
The lift arms are on the bottom hole, put to the top and it’ll have ground contact again.
I’m going to fiddle around with it some more to move it back a hair. I’ll add gussets afterward to beef it up.
Quote by Gary Pickeral I like
"If it can cast a shadow, it can be restored"

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2499
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby inairam » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:48 pm

Mike

Please post some pictures of the mod.

I mounted the blade today. Full right yaw of the blade I have a carriage bolt that may catch. I have two holes showing on the axel and have the larger front tires.
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When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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Lt.Mike
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Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:38 am
Zip Code: 07727
Tractors Owned: 1 -'58 International Cub Lo-Boy
2 - '46 International A's
2 - '52 Farmall Cubs
1 - '53 Farmall Super A
1 - ‘41 Ford 9N with a ‘49 8N Engine
1 - ‘48 (5641) Allis Chalmers G
Location: Farmingdale NJ

Re: Interference issue between tire and grader blade.

Postby Lt.Mike » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:03 pm

inairam wrote:Mike

Please post some pictures of the mod.

I mounted the blade today. Full right yaw of the blade I have a carriage bolt that may catch. I have two holes showing on the axel and have the larger front tires.

How big are those tires? I have the 15 x 5.00 fronts on mine.
Quote by Gary Pickeral I like
"If it can cast a shadow, it can be restored"


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