Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973
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inairam
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Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
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Location: Glen Mills PA

Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:23 pm

I have a 12v 1969 key with push-button start 140 that was running and starting well all year. I had it as part of a fall display by the road with a hay wagon with some straw bales, pumpkins, and the like. I would go by every other week and start it and run it for a while maybe disconnect the wagons and run it around or use it for something.

I was shutting it down by turning off the gas at the sediment bowl. Well one time I forgot to turn off the ignition and it sat for 2 weeks like that. The battery would not hold to charge. I had to replace that. The ignition was fried. I pulled the distributor to work on it in the barn. Got it to TDC #1 compression and clocked the distributor to #1 and got the tractor to start so I could get it back to the barn and finish. The PO painted over the timing marks. With a timing light and a light and a magnifier, I got it as close as I could to 14 degrees BTD.

It starts well and runs well in 1st and 2nd but can stumble sometimes under a load like a hill. However, does stumble in 3 and does not run in 4th as all. ( previously had no issues in all 4 gears). This tractor has a tach the engine is at ~ 1550-1575 high idle

Question 1

Is the timing not advanced far enough to too far? The manual lists two setting one for the engine SN below 103556 (22 degrees) and above that sn it is 14 degrees. Did I mention the PO repainted it. can not make out the engine sn. The max mark I could see is 30 degrees.

Question 2

I also noticed the tractor was not charging which is was working fine before my mistake. Can the regulator's points fail from the ignition being left on or was that just a coincidence?

Thank you in advance.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

Jim Becker
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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:35 am

That engine number was August 1963. So you should have the later version. Your distributor should be a "T" code. You should find that on the mounting flange. I suppose paint is covering that too.

If paint was keeping me from reading the timing marks, I'd find a fix, either add more paint, or remove some paint, or maybe add some chalk. I think I'd start with the chalk. Same thing with the engine number. At 14, your timing should be right.

Leaving the switch on shouldn't hurt the charging system. It could ruin the battery, points, or coil. Have you changed the coil?

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:03 am

Jim

I did not change the coil. Will do.

When I got it started I did use some scotch bright and long needle nose pliers and clean up the area and did mark 0-10 -20

I will put in a new coil and start over and check everything again. The distributor could be off a few teeth. The top is turned noticeably past 12 O clock ( 11:30) toward the block.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:17 am

Jim Becker wrote: Have you changed the coil?


Can a coil work well under light load and fail under a high load on the engine?
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:36 pm

inairam wrote:
Jim Becker wrote: Have you changed the coil?


Can a coil work well under light load and fail under a high load on the engine?

Yes. Here is one report. It was a Cub with a magneto, but the effect is the same.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=102443#p810067

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:43 pm

The coil was very hot. I do remember touching it but when I got spark I thought it was ok. The coil new in 2020 when I got the tractor did a turn up which included the coil.
Last edited by inairam on Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

Jim Becker
Team Cub
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Posts: 16301
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:52 pm

Rob one from another tractor to see if it fixes it. You must have another 12-volt tractor sitting around.

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:11 am

Jim,

I hate doing that. Once something is running I hate to take it offline to try to get something else running. Now you have two tractors that are down.

Woody Hayes, a football coach at Ohio State—"Three things can happen when you pass the ball, and two of them are bad." I feel every time you put a wrench on these things you have to make it better you have to be prepared for more bad than good and I do not like looking for trouble.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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Rick Spivey
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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby Rick Spivey » Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:25 am

I agree that the coil could be bad, I had a Cub that would run, but not under load. New coil fixed it right up.
Rick Spivey
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tst
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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby tst » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:43 am

ever take the distributor apart to lube the advance weights, make sure they are not froze up ? also if the point gap is closed up it would cause the same problem

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:45 am

tst wrote:ever take the distributor apart to lube the advance weights, make sure they are not frozen up? also if the point gap is closed up it would cause the same problem


I plan the go back into the distributor. I was not taking my time when I did it before.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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SONNY
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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby SONNY » Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:44 am

Check the springs on the dist. weights AND also check the shafts the weights ride on and how tight the weights are on the shafts! -----Had to get a different dist. for my 340, since everything in there was worn out and sloppy,---engine ran like crap. ---- Different dist., it now runs smooth as silk!

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:14 pm

I got a new coil from NAPA and installed it today. I did a test drive of just that change. The tractor started a bit better and did better but it was not 100%. I took the distributor out and reset the points ( TST suggestion) got the engine to TDC compression #1 clocked the distributor to #1 and started it up.

I still had the issue with seeing the marks with the light. I decided to loosen the front cowling to get more of a pointing rearward angle with the light and that helped a great deal. I am more confident the timing is correct or at least as close to correct as I can see the marks.

The tractor started well and had no problems in 1-3. I had to really feather the clutch in 4th but it did run in 4th and I was throwing mud all over from the tires in my "running for the law" gear.

Thanks, everyone. Now my heavy snow mover will be ready for winter.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!

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Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby ShawnAgne » Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:42 pm

Maybe this was already mentioned but when its cold my 300 needs to be warmed up before it can use the higher gears. Now the 100 is good to go, assuming because I don't have the valves and timing on the 300 as good as the 100. So maybe since you're running now with the new coil look at that too?
Shawn Agne

inairam
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:24 am
Zip Code: 19342
Tractors Owned: 1948 6v - Dozer
1949 with kub klipper belly mower. mag 6v - Mom
1950 with plow, 54 blade, mott mag 6v - Roxanne
1953 54 blade, c22, wood 42 6v
1957 6v - barn Queen
1965 lo-boy with c-3 mower 12 v - Loboy
1974 Horse II 12 v c-2
1975 with woods 42-6 12 v - Horse
1979 long strip 12 v stuck engine
130 with international 1000 loader 6 v
1969 140 with bush hog tow behind mower 12 v
Terramite T-6 4WD Backhoe Perkins diesel
Memberships: Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association;Chapter 8 IH Collectors; IH Collectors Worldwide
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Glen Mills PA

Re: Stumbling stalling in 3 and 4th gear - Timing?

Postby inairam » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:19 am

I have noticed between the Zenith carb and the larger engine that my 130-140 need more warm-up time than the cubs. I did have the engine warm when I set the timing. The manual says to get the manifold temp up before the timing is set. I have not adjusted the valves. I need to replace the gaskets and will do it then.
When you only have 9 horsepower you need to know the names of all of the ponies!


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