560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Farmall M, Super M, 400, 450 & 560 Tractors, 1939-1963
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phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:20 pm

Greetings; I was brush-hogging my field for about an hour when the engine started making a noise, so I shut it off immediately. I got off and inspected and did not see any issues. The oil on the dip stick was at the low end of the operating range, but in the range. I started the engine briefly and there was zero oil pressure so I shut it off. About 15 minutes earlier the front wheels dropped into a hole that was hidden by brush. The loader on the front caught the drop in the front end, and I used the loader to lift the front and back the tractor out of the hole. I did not see any damage to the tractor so I continued brush-hogging the field, which is mostly grass and wild flowers in that area. A friend plans to help me tow the tractor out of the field in the next few days. Any thoughts on what I should do/look at when I get the tractor out of the field?

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:21 pm

I got the 560 back to the barn with help of neighbors towing it. Coolant and oil levels are normal. Observed a oil line that that runs along left side of oil pan and frame to power steering unit, very oily including area around front seal. Removed a shield to see the bearing area. Still pondering what to do next.

tst
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Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby tst » Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:24 pm

if the engine was making noise, and it is full of oil, has no oil pressure, no damage can be seen I would drop the pan and see what debris it may have inside, check screen to see if its plugged, main bearings provide most of the oil pressure, can drop caps one at a time and inspect them for damage/wear

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:20 pm

Thanks very much. Was debating pulling the oil pan. thanks for the nudge.

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:36 pm

I got the bolts out of the oil pan and can lower the rear of the oil pan about 6". But it looks like I will have to block up the front of the axel and remove that cross member that the front axel stabilizers (?) tie to, to remove the oil pan. I did not see any damage peeking in the side of the lowered oil pan, but could not see everything clearly.

tst
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Posts: 4492
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:08 pm
Zip Code: 12514
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby tst » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:10 pm

check the oil for metal shavings also, can cut the oil filter open also and check for metal

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:13 pm

I checked the oil, filter, and the filter housing, and did not find any metal filings. The oil does not feel gritty and is not overly black. Since the tack cable was not working when I last changed the oil I cannot say how many hours is on this oil change, but I don't think I am overdue for a change. The oil pan had some moisture but my friend, who is familiar with tractor engine overhauls, said it was not unusual. My friend and I blocked up the front axle and removed the cross piece that the axle stabilizers (?) mount to (which was restricting removal of the oil pan).
No evidence of damage in the oil pump, bearings, or rod caps. The oil pump screen was clear.
No evidence of scoring in the cylinder walls when viewed from the bottom (and rotating the crankshaft to inspect).
Did not see anything that would indicate the engine was overheated (and the coolant temperature gauge was in the low 'run' zone at the time of the problem).
Slight wear line in two of the rod bearing caps. My friend thinks this is normal wear for the age.
We did not find any definitive reason for the noise I heard or why the oil pressure was zero. He recommended that I take the oil pump and the worst rod end cap to a local old tractor guru next week.
Thanks for all of the suggestions! Still a little baffled, but glad to see that what we have inspected so far is not what I had feared.

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
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Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:26 pm

I do not know about a 560, but many of the older tractors had to run for 20 seconds or maybe a little more before oil pressure was high enough to read on a gauge.
If you are not part of the solution,
you are part of the problem!!!

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:52 am

I have been thinking about that as well, and maybe I over reacted to the noise, which remains a problem. I am wondering if the engine is OK but there is a problem with the power steering unit as it is the other area where that seems to be overly oily, but don't see oil dripping when shut off.

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John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
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Posts: 23644
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.
Location: Mo, Potosi

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:51 pm

Don't overlook the more common things, such as noise from water pump, or generator/alternator.
If you are not part of the solution,
you are part of the problem!!!

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SONNY
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Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby SONNY » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:57 pm

Check oil pump drive ----- pins can shear and pumps stop. IF the drive gear and shaft is not broke,--I would try a different pump.
Both of my 560's are slow to show pressure on the gauge but as soon as the motor starts you can hear the oil hittin the crank. The sound gets quieter and then the hand starts going over.
Both of mine came from the factory as demo tractors so they have the 706 motor in them. There are 2 sized motors in 560's.---standard production motors, and demo motors for dealers to show to buyers and let them test drive the 560.,---THEN the new tractor they end up getting only has the small motor in it! --- They had 706's with 806 motors in them! ( have one of them too!), dirty pool on IH's part but that was the way they did business back then!

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:47 pm

I pulled the oil pump and showed it and a rod cap to a local old tractor guru. The pins had not sheared. He said the pump and the bearing cap showed slight wear for age of the tractor and advised that I should reassemble the engine without getting new bearings and look for the problem elsewhere. He indicated that the 1/64" thick filter paper I had was too thick for the oil pump body gasket. He said I could use it, but I decided to order the correct gasket. In fact a gasket came this last Saturday, but it was the wrong one (for 504 and earlier). So I ordered another one. He seemed to think it was not a good idea to use Permatex for this gasket. I also read where some folks make a gasket out of brown paper bag material. But since I am taking my time to repaint to oil pan, I can wait for a part to arrive from Messick.

In the mean time I drained all of the hydraulic fluid and removed the filter, which was in bad shape. So I now believe that this is the source of the noise, and the 'no oil pressure' is likely because I panicked and did not allow enough time for it to register on the gauge. I made a 'pre-oiler' from a garden sprayer and pumped oil back into the gauge port, to verify that it was not plugged when I saw it draining from the opened connecting rod. I plan to also connect the the pre-oiler to the oil gauge line and verify that it works, or install a new oil pressure gauge before I spine up the engine, initially with just the starter.

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SONNY
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Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby SONNY » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:46 am

It takes several seconds for them to start showing on the gauge after start up. ---- that still dont answer why you lost pressure while driving it! Dropping in a hole shouldnt cause any oil pressure loss. ---Unless your level in the pan was too low to start with and the pump started sucking air when the front dropped. How long were you in the hole with the front wheels that low? I would say that is why the pressure was lost. Oil ran to front of pan and uncovered the suction tube.

phill_mi
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:22 pm
Zip Code: 49435
Tractors Owned: '48 Farmall Cub & C22 sickle
'52 Ferguson TO-30
'63 Farmall 560 gas
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: 560 was working in field - engine noise - zero oil pressure

Postby phill_mi » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:15 pm

The front wheels were in the ditch/hole down to the frame for a couple of minuets, as I used the front loader to lift the front out of the hole and back out. I then continued to brush-hog the field for probably 15 - 20 minuets before there was the first indication of a problem. I did not notice the 'no oil pressure' until after I had shut off the engine and then tried to restart it. When I got the tractor back to the barn the next day, a friend helped me remove the oil pan and pull the caps to the connecting rods and bearings for inspection. There was no indication of oil starvation or damage. I still have some more investigation to do when I get some parts I ordered and get the oil pan back on. In the mean time I appreciate that suggestions.


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