This site uses cookies to maintain login information on FarmallCub.Com. Click the X in the banner upper right corner to close this notice. For more information on our privacy policy, visit this link: Privacy Policy
NEW REGISTERED MEMBERS: Be sure to check your SPAM/JUNK folders for the activation email.
184 rebuild completed
Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.
-
- Team Cub
- Posts: 11884
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:02 pm
- Zip Code: 80501
- Tractors Owned: Cubs, MH Pony, Shaw, Allis G, 1934 Silver King, JD LA and LI, Gibson D, David Bradley Tri-Trac
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: CO, Longmont
Re: 184 rebuild completed
Hindsight is always nice. I applaud Phil for trying to fix a problem that no one else (that I know of) had attempted. The price for a new retainer is now $180.00+. Any new approach always has a learning curve, and unfortunately with a Cub it's not like you get instantaneous feedback if something isn't going to work.
"We don't need to think more,
we need to think differently."
-Albert Einstein
we need to think differently."
-Albert Einstein
-
- Team Cub Guide
- Posts: 5636
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:24 am
- Zip Code: 43528
- Tractors Owned: 47(circle cub),48(Floyd backhoe),49,,51,54 and another 55
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: OH, Holland
Re: 184 rebuild completed
I am a facts, data, theory person.
The IHC second designed seal and retainer lasted for a long time so something must have been correct with their second design. The original IHC retainer and seal were revised, the seal was changed from a steel cased seal to a rubber cased seal. The retainer boss was thickened. They did not make new dies and use more expensive seals for no good reason. I expect the reason was a high failure rate with the steel cased seals combined with a too thin retainer boss. The revised design apparently worked well. I expect the failure rate was low, I am guessing less than 1/10,000. So repeat what IHC did and there should be a similar success rate. What is the failure rate of the reworked seals and retainer? Alot greater than 1/10,000.
I would like nothing more than to agree with you, but when I was machining retainers, and I did alot of them, an equal amount of R2 retainers came as the R1 retainers, and every one that showed up in my mailbox had a rubber coated seal, R1 or R2 didn't seem to have favorites. I had brand new rubber coated seals to observe the lose fit into the R2s that were stretched also. It'd be nice to know when the first R2 retainer started to leak. In the 60s or 70s maybe, or did the seals wait and just start to leak when farmallcub.com originated.
I wish that were true, I would've only had to machine R1s. I'm really not trying to cause any type of arguments, because I too like to search out facts and what works best. I still have some of the giant snaprings that I started installing towards the end, and sold Phil about 50 rings that he also installed and was part of his CNC process. IS THERE ANY ONE THAT HAS ONE OF MINE OR PHILS THAT HAS FAILED. Just curious.A rubber seal is that space age polymer that will flex and stay tight in the seal
Another question I always had was why IH made replacement retainers that sells now for 180 dollars and they still bare the same R2 part number. You'd think they would've added something to the metal structure to correct the issue and called it R3.
Rick
When I told my dad I've been misplacing things and doing stupid stuff----His reply---"It only gets better"
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 6707
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:34 am
- Zip Code: 27517
- Tractors Owned: '51 Cub #140966 "Bruno" with Woods 59 mower
'55 Cub #187541 "Betty" with Fast Hitch
'55 Cub #190482 "Ben" with Woods 42 mower
'55 Cub #191739 "Bertha" with Woods 42 mower
'56 Cub #194370 "Boris" with Mott Flail mower - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: NC, Chapel Hill
Re: 184 rebuild completed
Rick, I sent to tst two re-machined retainers in the last two years that had been done by one of you in either 2011 or 2012. Not sure who, and not sure exact purchase dates, but I do know the second one was installed in 2012. I don't know if Tim still has them.
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
- Zip Code: 29130
- Tractors Owned: fcub(5)
tricycle cub
154 (4)
Earthmaster (2)
JD 40T, JD 420 crawler-loader, JD MT
JD Unstyled A, Styled A, Unstyled AR
JD H
Centaur Tractor
AC Model C, G
Cub Cadets (9)
Gibson D
Red-E - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: SC, Ridgeway
Re: 184 rebuild completed
The rubber cased seal will eventually fail, the rubber will not last forever but should last 20 years or so. As far as I know, the original seal was steel cased and Jim Becker may have some info on that.
For me it is the thrill of the hunt, why did the reworked retainers fail at such a high rate and is there a solution? I am not selling a service, not a rep for a seal company, and I have no stock in any seal or retainer company. It is all about the hunt.
Luckily, IHC already did the testing and what worked was a rubber cased seal in a usable retainer. Company catalogs can be a good source of info for design. A quick look at a seal catalog such as the Parker catalog gives the answer as to why the reworked retainers failed. I also expect a rubber cased seal placed in a machined retainer it would also fail, too thin at that point. Interesting that the Machinery's Handbook has no listing for seal design.
For those that have or have done the reworking of the retainer, what is the new bore size?
I have no doubts why the reworked retainers are failing, I posted on that years ago. At this point the question could be: What is a solution?
Use a rubber cased seal. I have 3 replacement seals left in my stash waiting for the time they are needed but the seals I have are still available. If the seal appears to fit tight in the retainer then drop the retainer in boiling water for 10 minutes or so. If the seal is still tight after expansion of the retainer then it should be good. If not then I would look for a replacement retainer or a new retainer from Steiner or TM. Still use a rubber cased seal in the new retainer.
If someone does not want to go with a new retainer then try using high temp RTV sealer on a VERY CLEAN retainer and seal. It will likely last for 10-20 years if the RTV was used correctly. Staking the retainer should not be necessary but it is not going to hurt if someone wants some more insurance against a seal popping out of the retainer.
Years ago I looked into having new retainers machined out of aluminum or steel but no local machine shop was interested. I then took a bunch of measurements to machine my own but decided it was not worth the effort. I think a steel retainer would work well but aluminum would also work with a rubber cased seal. In the end, TM has a new retainer for $180 which is less that what a machine shop would charge.
I have no dog in the fight, I have the seals I need and I know what has worked for me in the past. I also truly mean no disrespect to anyone's machining ability but I also see the inherent design flaws with reworking the seal retainers. Why continue down that path?
For me it is the thrill of the hunt, why did the reworked retainers fail at such a high rate and is there a solution? I am not selling a service, not a rep for a seal company, and I have no stock in any seal or retainer company. It is all about the hunt.
Luckily, IHC already did the testing and what worked was a rubber cased seal in a usable retainer. Company catalogs can be a good source of info for design. A quick look at a seal catalog such as the Parker catalog gives the answer as to why the reworked retainers failed. I also expect a rubber cased seal placed in a machined retainer it would also fail, too thin at that point. Interesting that the Machinery's Handbook has no listing for seal design.
For those that have or have done the reworking of the retainer, what is the new bore size?
I have no doubts why the reworked retainers are failing, I posted on that years ago. At this point the question could be: What is a solution?
Use a rubber cased seal. I have 3 replacement seals left in my stash waiting for the time they are needed but the seals I have are still available. If the seal appears to fit tight in the retainer then drop the retainer in boiling water for 10 minutes or so. If the seal is still tight after expansion of the retainer then it should be good. If not then I would look for a replacement retainer or a new retainer from Steiner or TM. Still use a rubber cased seal in the new retainer.
If someone does not want to go with a new retainer then try using high temp RTV sealer on a VERY CLEAN retainer and seal. It will likely last for 10-20 years if the RTV was used correctly. Staking the retainer should not be necessary but it is not going to hurt if someone wants some more insurance against a seal popping out of the retainer.
Years ago I looked into having new retainers machined out of aluminum or steel but no local machine shop was interested. I then took a bunch of measurements to machine my own but decided it was not worth the effort. I think a steel retainer would work well but aluminum would also work with a rubber cased seal. In the end, TM has a new retainer for $180 which is less that what a machine shop would charge.
I have no dog in the fight, I have the seals I need and I know what has worked for me in the past. I also truly mean no disrespect to anyone's machining ability but I also see the inherent design flaws with reworking the seal retainers. Why continue down that path?
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
- Zip Code: 29130
- Tractors Owned: fcub(5)
tricycle cub
154 (4)
Earthmaster (2)
JD 40T, JD 420 crawler-loader, JD MT
JD Unstyled A, Styled A, Unstyled AR
JD H
Centaur Tractor
AC Model C, G
Cub Cadets (9)
Gibson D
Red-E - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: SC, Ridgeway
Re: 184 rebuild completed
I wish that were true, I would've only had to machine R1s. I'm really not trying to cause any type of arguments, because I too like to search out facts and what works best. I still have some of the giant snaprings that I started installing towards the end, and sold Phil about 50 rings that he also installed and was part of his CNC process. IS THERE ANY ONE THAT HAS ONE OF MINE OR PHILS THAT HAS FAILED. Just curious.A rubber seal is that space age polymer that will flex and stay tight in the seal
Another question I always had was why IH made replacement retainers that sells now for 180 dollars and they still bare the same R2 part number. You'd think they would've added something to the metal structure to correct the issue and called it R3.
Rick[/quote]
Neoprene is that space age polymer but nothing is going to last forever. There are seals with a Viton casing that may last even longer.
I assume IHC did not revise the seal retainer a third time simply because it was working well with a rubber cased seal. I don't think IHC necessarily was looking for a design and materials that will last 50 or 100 years. I also expect the seals that are leaking from the r2 retainer and the NLA National seals are due to the seals being 20,or 30,or 40 years old.
-
- Team Cub Guide
- Posts: 5636
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:24 am
- Zip Code: 43528
- Tractors Owned: 47(circle cub),48(Floyd backhoe),49,,51,54 and another 55
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: OH, Holland
Re: 184 rebuild completed
by Dale Finch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:01 pm
Rick, I sent to tst two re-machined retainers in the last two years that had been done by one of you in either 2011 or 2012. Not sure who, and not sure exact purchase dates, but I do know the second one was installed in 2012. I don't know if Tim still has them.
Dale Finch
Dale, did your two retainers have the big snapring like this picture, ,
When I told my dad I've been misplacing things and doing stupid stuff----His reply---"It only gets better"
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 2796
- Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:44 pm
- Zip Code: 48370
- Tractors Owned: 184
- Location: Oxford, MI
Re: 184 rebuild completed
I would like to echo the applause for the many guys who worked on these to improve upon the design.
I would think that a 1980 built 184 would have had all of the engine improvements included. The retainer I removed was an R2 made of aluminum. I have no idea what seal was in there originally, but it had failed.
The retainer (machined in 2012) did not have a snap ring. That probably would have eliminated the need to "stake in" the seal. There was sealant of some form on the inside of mine that looked like indian head. That did not keep it from spinning in the retainer.
I expect the locktite to fail eventually as well, but at this point 4 mowing seasons in, all is holding well.
I would think that a 1980 built 184 would have had all of the engine improvements included. The retainer I removed was an R2 made of aluminum. I have no idea what seal was in there originally, but it had failed.
The retainer (machined in 2012) did not have a snap ring. That probably would have eliminated the need to "stake in" the seal. There was sealant of some form on the inside of mine that looked like indian head. That did not keep it from spinning in the retainer.
I expect the locktite to fail eventually as well, but at this point 4 mowing seasons in, all is holding well.
184 w/ Creeper & 3-Point
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller
IH-54 Blade
IH 3160a Mower
IH Model 15 Tiller
IH-54 Blade
-
- 5+ Years
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:53 am
- Zip Code: 14201
Re: 184 rebuild completed
Mine had the snap ring and it still spun in the retainer, after staking it and loctite sleeve retainer it has been good for almost 3 years...knock on wood......now I have sealed my fate for it to leak with the first mowing of the 2018 season...lolRick Prentice wrote:by Dale Finch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:01 pm
Rick, I sent to tst two re-machined retainers in the last two years that had been done by one of you in either 2011 or 2012. Not sure who, and not sure exact purchase dates, but I do know the second one was installed in 2012. I don't know if Tim still has them.
Dale Finch
Dale, did your two retainers have the big snapring like this picture, ,
-
- Team Cub
- Posts: 17313
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
- Zip Code: 55319
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: MN
Re: 184 rebuild completed
One thing to keep in mind is that the loose seals are the result of the retainer warping with age and heat cycles. Machining a warped retainer to accept a different seal will not cause the retainer to quit warping. In fact, the reduced amount of material will probably accelerate the process. A reworked retainer will not last forever.
This old thread has about everything I know about this problem. It is worth rereading the whole thread.
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63197
This old thread has about everything I know about this problem. It is worth rereading the whole thread.
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63197
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 6707
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:34 am
- Zip Code: 27517
- Tractors Owned: '51 Cub #140966 "Bruno" with Woods 59 mower
'55 Cub #187541 "Betty" with Fast Hitch
'55 Cub #190482 "Ben" with Woods 42 mower
'55 Cub #191739 "Bertha" with Woods 42 mower
'56 Cub #194370 "Boris" with Mott Flail mower - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: NC, Chapel Hill
Re: 184 rebuild completed
Rick, I don't think either of those retainers had the snap ring, but not positive.
-
- 5+ Years
- Posts: 4908
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:24 am
- Zip Code: 00000
- Tractors Owned: .
1970 International 140
1972 International 140
1949 John Deere A
1993 Ford 4630 W/Loader
1965 John Deere 110
1961 Cub Cadet Original - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: 184 rebuild completed
Dale Finch wrote:OK, Shane...I think you've found a good project for another intriguing episode of "What Happened at Work Today"!
It may happen Dale. Walt could stand a rear main fixing and he may take a road trip to work in the next month or two so I can use him as a test pig I don’t know why a metal retainer wouldn’t work, haven’t gotten any response about it, if anyone has any input please share.
Every home is a school, what are you teaching?
-
- Team Cub Guide
- Posts: 5636
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:24 am
- Zip Code: 43528
- Tractors Owned: 47(circle cub),48(Floyd backhoe),49,,51,54 and another 55
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: OH, Holland
Re: 184 rebuild completed
Shane, pm me your address and I'll ship you an R2 retainer, a new IH sold rubber coated seal, a new cr29952 seal, and a giant snap ring. You can try your skills now instead of in a month or two. Everything free of charge as long as you keep a running post of your findings so we all can follow and participate.
Rick
Rick
When I told my dad I've been misplacing things and doing stupid stuff----His reply---"It only gets better"
-
- 5+ Years
- Posts: 4908
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:24 am
- Zip Code: 00000
- Tractors Owned: .
1970 International 140
1972 International 140
1949 John Deere A
1993 Ford 4630 W/Loader
1965 John Deere 110
1961 Cub Cadet Original - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: 184 rebuild completed
That’s awesome Rick. PM sent. I’ll send you your parts back when I get done with what I need to do.
Last edited by Slim140 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Every home is a school, what are you teaching?
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 6707
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:34 am
- Zip Code: 27517
- Tractors Owned: '51 Cub #140966 "Bruno" with Woods 59 mower
'55 Cub #187541 "Betty" with Fast Hitch
'55 Cub #190482 "Ben" with Woods 42 mower
'55 Cub #191739 "Bertha" with Woods 42 mower
'56 Cub #194370 "Boris" with Mott Flail mower - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: NC, Chapel Hill
Re: 184 rebuild completed
YEA!!!
I love it...another episode to follow and the PERFECT subject! We all need to thank you (and maybe even more important, your BOSS!! ) Thanks, too, to Rick!
I love it...another episode to follow and the PERFECT subject! We all need to thank you (and maybe even more important, your BOSS!! ) Thanks, too, to Rick!
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 5236
- Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:08 pm
- Zip Code: 12514
- Circle of Safety: Y
Re: 184 rebuild completed
I have rebuilt over 2000 of these retainers with out issue, The problem is that the castings shrink from the heat and old age, they are now "seasoned" and the shrinking has stopped, once they have been machined to the correct size and new seal installed the problem is over, I have been sent retainers that have been machined before that have failed, they had all been machined incorrectly by making the hole to large so the seal comes loose when hot, another issue which helps the seal to fail is the housing is warped on he gasket surface which I flatten, if left warped I believe when it is tightened down on the engine it leaves the housing crooked making it distorted and leads to more failures
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
-
184 engine rebuild Attachment(s)
by rednax » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:40 pm » in Lo-Boy Series - 154, 184, 185 - 27
- 1228
-
by outdoors4evr
Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:29 am
-
-
- 4
- 440
-
by SONNY
Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:09 pm
-
- 6
- 547
-
by SONNY
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:02 pm
Return to “Lo-Boy Series - 154, 184, 185”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest