cub starter question

[69ranger]

Hello everyone,
It seems that other things have been pulling me away from my tractors the last year or so.

The starter on my 48 Cub, just never has worked right, and I am thinking about trying to converting it to 12 Volts, and if possible using a new starter.
While going through Dad's stuff last weekend, I ran across a good 12 volt starter that he had laying around.
I know this starter is good, but since it came of off of a late 70's that was key start, there is no way to mount a starter switch.
So I am assuming that if I add a solenoid, and a push button to engage it, the starter will work?

Have any of you done this type of conversion to an older Cub?

Thank you for the help,

Brad

[Glen]

Hi,
The 6 volt starter should work good enough to use on 6 volts.
The 2 battery cables should be number 2 cables, some people put on smaller cables for 12 volt systems, they have said on here that they don't carry enough power for a 6 volt system.
The starter may need new brushes and bushings inside it.
If the bushings are worn, the armature can rub inside the starter, and it will probably turn slower than it should.
They have recommended on here to repair the original starter, or have it repaired at a starter repair shop.

If the Cub has a 1948 engine, the 12 volt Cub starter may or may not fit in place.
The 12 volt starter is a bigger diameter than the 6 volt starter.
IH changed the space around the starter in 1964 when the 12 volt system came out on Cubs.
There is more room on the newer blocks.
Before buying anything else, try putting the 12 volt starter on and see if it fits in the space for it.
IH also used a different lower water elbow for the 12 volt system, with a place cast in it so there is more room for the bigger starter.
Below are pics from TM Tractor of the newer elbow, the 1st 2 pics show the casting change.
http://www.tmtractor.com/tm-tractor/gen ... 2v_001.htm

[69ranger]

Glen,
It appears that this was discussed on a couple of occasions. Funny thing was when i searched the forum nothing came up, so I posted my question.
This evening when I did an google search, it took me to this and other posts discussing this.

Thank you for the response. Lots of good info in your post, and I had no idea that the 12 V starters use a different water neck.
The good news is that I found that part too, in Dads stuff.

I should give a tiny bit more detail on the starter issues that I am having. I made new cables out of heavy gauge welder lead cable the winter before last, when I was working the tractor over.
The previous owner of this Cub, bought this starter new, because the original was missing when he got the tractor.
I think the starter is mis-made or the wrong one, as the problem that i have is with engagement of the drive. If it engages it works perfectly, but if not then it grinds very badly, until you stop and try again.
I have tried about everything with this thing. I replaced the drive, and the starter switch, and nothing changed, so I split it and checked the ring gear for wear, or damaged teeth. The teeth look perfect, so I took the starter off of one of my other cubs and installed it, and it works perfectly.
When I put the bad starter on the other cub we are back to the same grinding noise.

So the trouble seems to follow the bad starter, from tractor to tractor. I have just been hand cranking it, so I wont kill my ring gear teeth.
Since I am not trying for originality, and wanting a dependable working tractor, and I have that other starter now, I figured what the heck, i would convert it over.
I really think this starter is like a lot of reproduction parts, that are made over seas, and not made quite right.

Thanks again for the help.

Brad

[Glen]

Hi,
Thanks for saying more about the starter.
If you change the Cub to 12 volts, you will need to remove the generator and replace it with an alternator, or 12 volt generator.
The wiring for an alternator is different than the generator has.
Yes, the 12 volt starter needs a key switch with start position, or a push button would work.
It needs a solenoid. If you add a solenoid, you will probably need to change the battery cable to the starter.
IH used 2 piece cables from the battery to the starter, the solenoid is under the platform on the later 12 volt Cubs. The Cub parts manual shows the wiring for them.
1 cable goes from the battery to the solenoid, the other cable goes from the solenoid to the starter.

If you decide to keep it 6 volts, J P Tractor Salvage at the bottom of the page might have a used Delco starter.

[inairam]

In what way is the start not right? IT could be the cables are undersized.

I had a temperamental starter on my 49 that we a bad bushing causing it to load up the starter when it was warm so it would not crank.

My 6-volt machines are my best starters. I have not converted any of my 6 voters to 12.

[Eugene]

My opinion, rebuild the 6 volt starter. You can do it yourself and it's not that expensive. The 6 volt starter works well on 12 volts.

If you want to install a 12 volt alternator, do so. The single wire 12 volt alternator installation should cost about the same or less than a quality 6 volt regulator and generator rebuild.

[Jim Becker]

My opinion, rebuild the 6 volt starter. You can do it yourself and it's not that expensive. . . .

Agree. Most of the time, all they need is put in new brushes and bushings and clean up the commutator. Steiner has those parts for less than $20.

[69ranger]

Hi Guys. Thanks for the help, and with the answers to my questions, regarding the 12 volt swap.
I may see if I can find a used original starter, for it. I was thinking about a 12 volt conversion to a one wire gm alternator anyway, and this seemed like an easy fix to install the 12 volt starter that i already have. So now I am rethinking my strategy at the moment
I have rebuilt many starters over the years, and have been pretty successful.
This starter looks like brand new inside, because it pretty much is, but still its not working right.
My only thought is that the starter is apparently mis-made. I dont know where the previous owner bought it, but probably Amazon or some other discount place, but I cant say for sure.
It works perfectly on the bench, starter drive throws out, the speed seems to be normal, all looks good, it just grinds and wont engage when on the tractor. When it engages, and catches right it works fine, but only does this maybe 1 out of 5 times.
The saddle switch is new, and so is the drive, and since the trouble follows the starter when I moved it to another tractor, have have to assume that its the problem. I am beginning to wonder if its like the China made carburetor Bob helped straighten out. Made, but not made right.
Sorry for the drift off of the original question, toward the more complex problems that actually were at the root of my desire to change it.
More experimenting, tonight if time allows. Several people have asked me for help, including my daughter, and my best friend, so the tractor may have to wait.

[Jim Becker]

I haven't seen that problem in a long time. But I believe a weak spring in the Bendix can cause it (or in this case maybe something else with the drive). If the whole starter is some recently built replacement, it may not even have the old style drive mechanism.

[Glen]

Here is info about the starter model numbers, if you need it.
The Delco model numbers of the 6 volt starters are on the plate on the starter.
The earlier ones were 1109603.
In the early 1950's they changed to 1109611.
They both look about the same on the outside.
Below are pics from TM Tractor.

http://www.tmtractor.com/tm-tractor/gel/crank6v_001.htm

[69ranger]

Thank you for the info. I will see if there are any numbers on it.
I did not get to work on it tonight, as I was helping my daughter build some fence.
Might have time to work on it tomorrow..

[Jim Becker]

The earlier ones were 1109603.
In the early 1950's they changed to 1109611.
They both look the same.

I believe the only difference is the field coils.