Health insurance costs, when will the madness stop!

[Rudi]

Forced ANYTHING should be reserved for a society that gives up and admits socialism and later communism is the end goal.

Rather than forcing savings just teach the lesson of the 3 little pigs. What happened to it?

Remove the dis-incentives to personal responsibility and the problem would be solved. Humans can be really responsiible for themselves if not led astray by big brother. Why should the rest of us be responsible for the irresponsible?

George:

I agree completely. Forced anything is a perversion and should not even be entertained in a Free Democratic Society. My Dad grew up under Hitler.. and he knew exactly how bad Forced Anything can be... so, let's just forget that scenario ok...

I am not sure that I buy into George Orwell's BIG BROTHER scenario.. except as it may be in reality today. But Orwell's 1984 was based on a Communisti/Socialist Utopian Society gone crazy by greed and power hungry bureaucrats...

True.. not all in society are responsible.. but we must take care of those who cannot take care of themselves. Does this mean that the slackers and free riders should benefit.. no, but they will no matter what we do. So for the better of those who cannot defend or protect themselves, we as a just society must take care of those less fortunate.

Remember as Christ said.. Love thy Brother as Unto Thyself... which means that one must treat each other the same way they wish to be treated. Also we must care for each other, because without each other.. who will we be

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

But Orwell's 1984 was based on a Communisti/Socialist Utopian Society gone crazy by greed and power hungry bureaucrats...

Think how few words need to be replaced in that phrase to make it applicable today..............

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Remember as Christ said.. Love thy Brother as Unto Thyself... which means that one must treat each other the same way they wish to be treated. Also we must care for each other, because without each other.. who will we be

Rudi,

Christ is now largely considered a Buddhist Saint (Boddhisattva), which is one of many reasons that I find no contradiction in our Lutheran upbringing, and Buddhism.........

The message of Christ, and Shakyamuni (the Buddha) was largely the same.... all men are deserving of our compassion and love, regardless of their actions or motivation.

Therefore, it is never appropriate to "sort" men into groups, saying..."these deserve my (whatever....you fill in the blank), but these do not".......

You are right on the money with your motivation on this one, my friend.....

--Tom

[Little Indy]

Sorry Richard....My bad.....

Ok....so if this concept is as lucrative as you're saying....then why isn't an insurance company offering a combination high-yield fund / catastrophic insurance plan to meet this need.....?? Insurance companies love the concept of having our money tied up for generations........

Even without tax incentives, this may be an equitable solution......although I'm not sure that young people could spare as much as 7% of their income.......

Give us a "working poor" analysis, Richard....since you seem to have the calculations well in hand.... of, say, someone making 22K, at age 35, 45, 55, and 65, just to see if its possible to meet the needs of an aging person, as typical....

Assume a person makes 20K a year. Assume the 7% is the amount the government wants you to save. The person will be saving 1.4K a year. In place of 2k used in my example we use 1.4K. 1.4K/2k equals X/213K or X equals 149.1K at age 65. This is not as much but not bad either.
to give some of the itermediate figures at a 10% return for 2K saved at age 16: age 20 is 2.9K+; age 30 is 8K-; age 40 is 20K-; age 50 is 51K; age 60 is 133K- (+ means add some change and -means subtract some change). This is amounts that a one time investment adds to the account. The person has much more to their account because he/she has been saving this amount per year. Instead of an investment it becomes an annuity. That can be fiqured as well. Any financial calculator can do it. For my children I did the running calculations on paper so that they could see the amounts grow each year. IMNSHO Insurance companies don't advertise these because control has been returned to the individual. I like the program for that precise reason. Gives the individual some control of his own fate. Destiny and genes still are large factors.

And then if we allow people who die with money in their accounts to will it to relatives' accounts or to the general public, the amount involved become huge quickly. And if we add the amounts to the bottom first working poor would see their acocunts grow faster than their own contributions. Insurance companies and government do not like the system because they lose control.

By forced savings I do not mean putting a gun to the person's head but I do mean incentives such as no taxes on money saved and double taxes on the money that should have but was not saved.

Richard

[George Willer]

By forced savings I do not mean putting a gun to the person's head but I do mean incentives such as no taxes on money saved and double taxes on the money that should have but was not saved.

Richard

My earlies statement still stands. Savings are certainly a good idea, but government has no business in our business.

All we need now is one more good Supreme Court justice and our Constitution will once again be safe. It's a pity it is seeming less likely now.

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

All we need now is one more good Supreme Court justice and our Constitution will once again be safe. It's a pity it is seeming less likely now.

George,

It is amazing, isn't it, that we must, time and again, put all of our hopes on the supreme court as a means of protection....

Regrettably, this third, and frequently overlooked branch of our government is so bogged down in its "secondary role" of being the ultimate court of appeal, that it can barely function in its "primary role" of hearing cases of constitutionality of law......

It is also a shame that an issue like abortion covertly dominates the approval process for justices.....many good men (and a few good women) have been denied their appointment, on many a flimsy excuse, for the simple reason alone of sitting on the wrong side of the fence on that one issue.......There is no good answer to this issue.....and it needs to be left alone.........

[Jack fowler]

Richard,

I’m setting in an airport waiting for a flight and reading some the threads on this site.

I’m lost here. That’s pretty easy with me sometimes.

Let’s use my family medical because, it’s real life. I pay $9214.92 a year for my medical insurance (health, prescriptions, dental and eyes). This past year due to surgery for injuries, illness and regular check ups to my family; the total cost was $33,133.23. The previous year the total cost was $22,180.45 and in fact the past 20 years my total medical expense was about $435,000.00 which = $21,750.00 per year average. This includes the cost of the birth of my sons. The insurance company paid about 99% of this.

To my understanding if I invested, let’s say $10,000 dollars for the five members of my family each, 20 years ago; 50,000.00 x .10 x 20 yr. compounded interest one times a year the total would be $336,375.00.

I’m lost… If I could have come up with $50,000.00 twenty years ago, I still would be in the hole. Still I would have to pay an average of $21750.00 per year. Maybe if the whole country contributed it would work, but as you know the insurance companies do that now and invest the money and that's why they own everything.

When you first started writing about forced saving I thought like George Willer said; “no way I want the government involved in my business”. The more I thought of it, I’m force to consent $9214.92 a year for my medical insurance now. I would be crazy not to.

I realize I’m not the “brightest star in the sky” and a lot of times I “march to a different drum beat”, so you can reproach me how I have your “forced saving plan misunderstood”.


Jack

[George Willer]

When you first started writing about forced saving I thought like George Willer said; “no way I want the government involved in my business”. The more I thought of it, I’m force to consent $9214.92 a year for my medical insurance now. I would be crazy not to.

Jack,

Freedom is one of the most important things we have and we certainly don't want to fritter it away. Of course you would be crazy not to avail yourself of the insurance since it's a part of your compensation package... but you should NOT be forced to. You should be free to do stupid things too, as many folks seem to. Government forcing us to do anything only assures us that more will be government dependant (which is their true goal), but does nothing at all to reduce stupidity.

[Donny M]

When you first started writing about forced saving I thought like George Willer said; “no way I want the government involved in my business”. The more I thought of it, I’m force to consent $9214.92 a year for my medical insurance now. I would be crazy not to.

Jack,

Freedom is one of the most important things we have and we certainly don't want to fritter it away. Of course you would be crazy not to avail yourself of the insurance since it's a part of your compensation package... but you should NOT be forced to. You should be free to do stupid things too, as many folks seem to. Government forcing us to do anything only assures us that more will be government dependant (which is their true goal), but does nothing at all to reduce stupidity.

The best post of this thread

[Little Indy]

Let’s use my family medical because, it’s real life. I pay $9214.92 a year for my medical insurance (health, prescriptions, dental and eyes). This past year due to surgery for injuries, illness and regular check ups to my family; the total cost was $33,133.23. The previous year the total cost was $22,180.45 and in fact the past 20 years my total medical expense was about $435,000.00 which = $21,750.00 per year average. This includes the cost of the birth of my sons. The insurance company paid about 99% of this.

To my understanding if I invested, let’s say $10,000 dollars for the five members of my family each, 20 years ago; 50,000.00 x .10 x 20 yr. compounded interest one times a year the total would be $336,375.00.

I’m lost… If I could have come up with $50,000.00 twenty years ago, I still would be in the hole. Still I would have to pay an average of $21750.00 per year. Maybe if the whole country contributed it would work, but as you know the insurance companies do that now and invest the money and that's why they own everything.

When you first started writing about forced saving I thought like George Willer said; “no way I want the government involved in my business”. The more I thought of it, I’m force to consent $9214.92 a year for my medical insurance now. I would be crazy not to.

I realize I’m not the “brightest star in the sky” and a lot of times I “march to a different drum beat”, so you can reproach me how I have your “forced saving plan misunderstood”.


Jack

No Jack you got it for the most part and in cases like yours a modification I made would be just the thing. I would allow one as an option to buy medical insurance with a very large deductible. I was thinking the median wage in the USA. (I forget What Turbo Tax says it is). This insurance would cover 100% once the deductible was meet. Payment either increases your outlay for health care or decreases the amount in your account for health care your choice. But that way I think money would be there when you needed it. As for keeping the insurance industry honest?

Richard

Richard

[Little Indy]

Soon I will be having surgery. I just hate giving my money or M/C monies or BCBS monies to an eye doctor but it is getting harder and harder. I am posting this because I found out that I buy the post op eye drops myself they will come to $30 even. But if I use my insurance it comes to over $90. You figure out that one I and my financial calculator are at a lost.

Richard

[Little Indy]

For those who do not have a financial calculator this one seems easy to use
"http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm"
or you can Google Financial Calculator.
It was right there. I have checked it out with a few calculations done the long way. We agree. I guess that makes it ok.

Richard

[Jack fowler]

Richard,

You wrote in my case you would allow one to have a large deductible. Do you mean one person or all members to have a one deductible? You wrote: Payment either increases your outlay for health care or decreases the amount in your account for health care your choice. To my understanding a payment would be taken out of my health investment correct? And what was left (money) would continue to grow? If so, if my medical charges were more than my investments or if I have to pay a large deductible, do I borrow the money, if I don’t have it? Five years ago I had four of us in the hospital in one year. If I had to pay even half of that bill, I don’t know what I would have done. You also wrote: But that way I think money would be there when you needed it. As for keeping the insurance industry honest? I didn’t realize insurance companies would be involved, I thought you were talking about some sort of government program watching over the money.

Again my apology for being impenetrable over this.

Jack

[Little Indy]

Richard,

You wrote in my case you would allow one to have a large deductible. Do you mean one person or all members to have a one deductible? You wrote: Payment either increases your outlay for health care or decreases the amount in your account for health care your choice. To my understanding a payment would be taken out of my health investment correct? And what was left (money) would continue to grow? If so, if my medical charges were more than my investments or if I have to pay a large deductible, do I borrow the money, if I don’t have it? Five years ago I had four of us in the hospital in one year. If I had to pay even half of that bill, I don’t know what I would have done. You also wrote: But that way I think money would be there when you needed it. As for keeping the insurance industry honest? I didn’t realize insurance companies would be involved, I thought you were talking about some sort of government program watching over the money.

Again my apology for being impenetrable over this.

Jack

No Jack you are not being impenetrable. These matters can be quite complex in their details and I don't usually make myself clear.

IMVOTW (in my view of the world) and again assume the 7% of income keeps every thing going each year and 10% is the average growth of the American stock markets (this is the historical average) you would be given a choice do you put it all into an account to grow at 10% compound interest. If you put it all into the account you would be responsible for all medical expenditures for your family but I personally realize that is not the best option for most people therefore I would allow them to buy insurance with a large deductible. I think (but I could be wrong) that the deductible should be the median wage of the previous year. Then if one had a truly bad year one is responsible for only that part of the bill equal to the median wage of the previous year and would be allowed to pay it out of pocket or from their account. That deductible is a family deductible. It is always a family deductible even if the family is a single individual. Also I would allow a person to buy this insurance out of pocket or from their account their choice. For me life is a matter of choices and accepting the consequences of those choices. When I and several others tried in the 90's to start an Independent Physicians Association, I did some complex calculations as I had gone back to grad UNL night school and figured out in my own case paying the large deductible insurance from my account would reduce the amount in my account by about half. But I thought it would be a resonable compromise. The weak point in this model is the working poor. But if you allow people to will any remainder in their account to relatives or the general public and you pour the monies into the accounts from the bottom up the monies added will probably be enough and much better than the present situation.

By the way we failed because too many physicians wish to be a puppet on a string. Having read the chapter in the Brothers Karamazov by Fyodyr Doestoevsky labeled the Grand Inquisitor I understand why all to well.

It could be a totally government program but I trust them less than I trust insurance compamies.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

But if you allow people to will any remainder in their account to relatives or the general public and you pour the monies into the accounts from the bottom up . . .

Sounds a lot like Medicare and Social Security. Only difference is the current programs are mantatory and still have trouble covering the needs. Good luck getting many to voluntarily will anything to a relief program.