Decision 2006

[ljw]

Tom wrote,

It is not merely our government, but our entire society which is badly broken......and we've got economic and environmental disasters breathing down our necks all at the same time. One might consider that this is perhaps the most dire and significant crossroads we've ever come upon as a nation. The question is, I suppose, do we fix ourselves, and lead the world into the 22nd century, or do we merely go the way of that other great republic, Rome, and simply enjoy our decline until we are no more...........

Tom,
I think your question is the key question we should ponder. Although I feel that it is the "big brother" influence in life that it hurting us more than the environment or the economy. Sure, I truly believe that the sky was definitely bluer when I was a kid lying on the grass looking at the clouds floating by. But maybe it's these tired old eyes I'm looking through that's part of the problem. Certainly the work force is going through an "adjustment" for a time. I know that it doesn't help the people that are going through this, but it will get better. Mostly I fear the "word police" that attempt to place a label on me if I express my feelings on a particular subject that is contrary to popular opinion. Basically, it's the freedom of speech and the right of people to actually live their own life that is at stake. I feel that we are creating a society that doesn't know how to fall down, brush your self off, and go again.

Maybe our society is in a decline. I would prefer to think otherwise. But I don't think that I ever heard that life is easy.

Larry

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Well,

This year, as predicted, our trade deficit...not our budget deficit, but our trade deficit will be 1 trillion dollars........

I don't have the omniscience needed to wrap my brain around that one, so I have to manipulate the numbers somewhat.....

That is approximately $3000 for every man, woman, and child (including illegal immigrants) that exist within the union.

Now, if our economy was growing at a similar pace, in such a way that the average person increased his earning so that the per capita income increased by $3000 this year, well, we'd maintain our standard of living just fine, and all would be well with the world........but it's not.....

So the end result is that the per capita resident of the union becomes poorer by that $3000 this year.......well...our economy is growing slightly...so lets say $2500 for the sake of argument..... That's how much of your wealth, to a man, that is going to leave the union this coming year.....Where does it end up?? China....... A preliminary look at the data suggests China and Canada, but one must realize that virtually every dollar that goes to Canada, comes back to us in another way....so we can give it to China on the second round......

And remember, this is for each man, woman, and child.....so count up the heads at the dinner table, and multiply that by $2500..........That's really how much our golden "standard of living" is decaying.

So.....the illusion that our economy is doing well is precisely that.....

As a "sealed system"....it may be creeping along.......as part of the global economy, however, it is failing us badly.

[ljw]

Tom, Once again talk of financial ruin, impending disaster. But not one word on seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

We''ll fix it this way:
1)Let's all quit purchasing foreign goods, cars, tools, clothing, etc. We the people can turn this trade deficit around tomorrow.
2)Let's inform the Chinese that we will not trade with them until their worker's wage approaches ~$25.00/hour.

The beauty and the irony of our difficult situation is that it rests on our shoulders. Believe me, I am not without blame.

So.....the illusion that our economy is doing well is precisely that.....

If you are referring to my posting, I didn't say that the economy was doing fine. The employment rate is very low. But a person can massage these numbers in order to interpret them as he sees fit. I honestly don't know.

But it's so darn easy to lament about certain doom. It's much more difficult to be pragmatic and search for the way through these trying times.

Larry

[George Willer]

Larry,

Competition from foreign goods is why we are no longer driving DeSotos.

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Larry, my friend....

I am not nearly as gloomy as I sound, I suppose..........

In fact, I'm rather silly, and cheerful....

I am, however, of the opinion that most people worry about the little things, while missing the big ones that are coming to bite us in the behinds......

Is there a solution?? Of course I have my "pet" ideas.....

Goods coming from any country that is practicing inhumane labour policies should be tariffed, and tariffed highly.......

China should be tariffed on principal, until they show some backbone in the UN security council......

These however are personal views......and may not be worthy of any great thought......

How do we make the right decisions to produce an outcome that will reduce or eliminate suffering....not just for our own people, but for those who are producing these cheap goods, under intolerable conditions??

That is the question we need to address when it comes to tarrifs.....

Personal biases, like my own, need be cast to the wind.....

[ljw]

George wrote:

Competition from foreign goods is why we are no longer driving DeSotos.

I was being facetious. Couldn't you tell?
What's a DeSoto?

Tom,

I absolutely agree will you. We need to force China, et al; to play on a level field. the obvious questions are 1) how do you do it, 2) how much of a tariff, 3) and what about free trade?

I know that you're not silly. I just don't want you to be gloomy.

Larry

[George Willer]

George wrote:

Competition from foreign goods is why we are no longer driving DeSotos.

I was being facetious. Couldn't you tell?
What's a DeSoto?

Larry

Larry,

You're kidding, right? The DeSoto was one of the cars (arks) people liked to look at but they preferred to buy smaller, more economical imports. I could have as well said Edsel, Chrysler, Cadillac, Packard, or whatever Detroit thought could make them and the auto workers the most money. People rebelled against the gas guzzlers much sooner than our domestic auto industry understood.

When they finally caught on what did they offer? Falcon, Gremlin, Nova, Chevy II... well you get the picture.

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Desoto was to Chrysler, what Edsel was to Ford, what Packard was to GM....

All three of which were downright classy lines of machines, but, as George said, just didn't fit the American Pocketbook.

We should mourn the loss of these fine machines.....but be thankful that Lincolns and Cadillacs survived........

Actually, the ending of diverse American auto brands marked the beginning of "the walmart mentality".......where just having one or two choices in any given product category was enough for us.....

Think of the Pre-war automaking years, when there we 40 or 50 choices for any particular model type or price range.... LaSalle, Cord, Hudson, plus all the ones we are familiar with.......

When Russian citizens came to the US in the 1970's and 80's, they were amazed at how many brand choices were available for any given product......Now, I think, one would need to go to Russia to see any amount of diversity of brands......because heaven forbid, Walmart is the standard by which retail stores measure themselves, and if Walmart only sees fit to carry one brand of something, well, there's no need for anyone else to do any better.......

[ljw]

Yeah, George, I'm just kidding. At first glance at your pic I thought it was a Chrysler Imerial, You know, I really miss the days when each vehicle had a different look, a different character. I was at an auction yesterday and saw a set of '58 Chevy Belair tailights. I wonder how many people on this forum would know how to tell the difference in taillights of a Biscayne, Belair, and an Impala of that year?

Larry

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

3) and what about free trade?


Larry

Free Trade, to my mind, is a concept forced upon us by the rest of the world for their benefit, through the dangling of various carrots that never materialize, and through the infliction of guilt.

It also seems to me that while the entire world talks about it, the only ones that they expect to practice it, is the US.

Since the only real economic power we have left is as the world's largest consumer, it seems logical to me that we flex that muscle from time to time.

The rest of the world has a low-enough opinion of the US, that our image cannot possibly be tarnished much......

Just a thought....

--Tom

[jim turner]

I grew up in a very remote country area here in Mo my Dad and his Dad were farmers and in 1949 I remember the first VW we ever saw in this country and my Dad and two other nieghbors were visiting when it went by and they all agreed (how soon we forget , they should hang that man for even driving one)

[Rudi]

Tom:

I really am enjoying these two threads. And I think it is great that we all can convey how we feel about stuff without anyone really getting their noses out of joint. And my comments below and following definitely are my personal feelings and my nose is not out of joint... it is just that I am flabergasted by some of the stuff I am reading.

I will state in advance, that this is just my opinion based on my readings and my interpretation of history..... it may not be 100% factual, but it is correct as far as intent and substance. Again, this is my opinions...

Oh one thing... the US must realize that if it wants to sell it's goods on a global scale and hence provide good jobs and benefits to it's citizens, it must by the very definition.. be an advocate of Free Trade -- Fair Free Trade. However, as evidenced by a lot of opinions .. Free Fair Trade is not a concept warmly accepted

Hey, If I gotta drive a Chrysler or a Ford or a GM IN EUROPE.. then you have to drive a VW or a BMW or an AUDI in the US.. it is only FAIR....

So.. onto the games

Free Trade being something that was forced on the US is probably one of the biggest misconceptions of the 20th century

To my view and most here in Canada, the only side to benefit fropm Free Trade is south of the 49th. We certainly don't. In fact it costs us a lot more than it did before Free Trade. Especially since just before Free Trade was forced on us by the US Administration... we were forced off of the Gold Standard by the US as well.

Remember back in 1978 -- I got $1.25 Canadian for every US dollar... which meant that the US buck was only worth $.75 cents... When the US pretty much forced us to float the Canadian Dollar against the US dollar on the NY Stock Exchange.. it only took what 2 years for the Dollar to be at par (Like that was a big surprise huh???? NYSE -- New York -- US????).

One of the prime factors driving Free Trade is inclusion of a US drafted and demanded clause, that states if we as a Nation ever sell any of our water to anyone, then the US may claim Right of First Refusal or Exclusivitiy of Trade agreement and actually demand that we ship all the water that the US wants no matter what our National Policy is. This has to do with the Manitoba/Dakota's problem... if I remember correctly. For some reason the US believes that the Canadian watersheds actually belong to the US.. I think that has something to do with latent vestiges of the Manifest Destiny Syndrome.. but I am not completely sure. But t sure isn't Free Trade nor is it Fair Free Trade... it is US interests only.

The second most important driving force for Free Trade was the US desire that they get access to ALL Canadian Resources on a Right of First Refusal or Exclusivitiy of Trade agreement that would guarantee unlimited access to Canadian Oil and Gas allowing US reserves to be left untouched. Just look at our Oil Sands and of course Sable and Hibernia Fields for an example, as well as our Beaufort Sea resources. Where does all this go?? To the US.. and at a price that is substantially cheaper than we pay for OUR OWN OIL & GAS

Free Trade.. my behind Oh yeah.. we get to sell our Oil and Gas.. but we have to sell it to the US before we can sell it to our own citizens. This is Free Trade? This is Fair Free Trade... not in any dictionary I can find...

One of the biggest things we get upset about is no matter what way the wind blows, there is always somebody south of the border complaining about how badly the US is getting treated by the Global Economy, by Free Trade and NAFTA. HELLO... the US runs the Global Economy, Free Trade and NAFTA Somebody is always complaining about how badly the US worker is getting shafted by every other country. Well, it isn't us who is shafting the US worker.. it is the US Government and the US Corporate Giants... as well as the US Labour Unions who are shafting the US worker.

If it wasn't for the plain adulterous politicking of the US Corporate Giants and the obvious brown nosing to big business by US politicians.. there might actually be Free Trade. Add in the US Labour Unions, especially the UAW and the Teamsters.. and you got big trouble -- spelled Racketeering! Right now it is business as usual for all US Corporations. They are concerned only for the bottom line and don't give a rats butt for who they hurt.. US Citizens included.

Cases in Point.

1. Softwood Lumber. The NAFTA bi-partisan committee has on ALL counts on ALL occassions (with one exception and that was overturned) sided with Canada over the SoftWood Lumber dispute. Even the US Delegates have agreed 100% on all points that the US position is illegal. But what happens ... US Government slaps a Surcharge on our lumber which is payable to who -- Georgia-Pacific, Weyerhauser etc... certainly not the little guy. They are complaining about subsidies.

Well guess what .. The US CANNOT and does not have the right to tell a sovreign nation how to run their business. We don't tell the US how to run it.. you do your things your way, we do ours our way... so what happens. Even at the WTO.. Canada WINS.. we are right... the US Lumber Lobby is wrong. They are crying all the time. Why??? Cause their profits are not what they want them to be. TOUGH.... So far that tarriff has cost us Canadians 5.3 BILLION DOLLARS.. in money that is reserved for the exclusive use of the Large Forestry companies.. and by the way.. Provincial Stumpage Pricing on Crown Lands (in areas where pricing by stumpage is the practise), is a logical and proper way to do stuff, considering the Provincial Government holds Crown Land in TRUST for the Citizens of that Province.... who actually own it... It is their land, therefore it is a market economy... duhhh... sheesh.. And guess what.. this affects me directly. I cannot sell the wood off of my land without having to pay a surcharge to the US Government. Since when do I as a Canadian taxpayer have to answer to the US Government

I love the states, but I don't want to pay US taxes in Canada...

2. MadCow. 1 cow has BSE and what does Colorado Ranchers do? Force closure... costs us billions... and it costs the US shopper billions too.. who gains.. yup you guessed it.. the Colorado Ranchers Association and the other Corporate Ranchers. And the point that really burns is the damn cow was from the States in the first place... sheesh.. All kinds of evidence to prove that our herds are safe.. does that help Nope, the Governor of Colorado (who is an idiot as far as I am concerned -- just look at his comments on duality of linguistics... what a jerk .. if he actually had his facts right, he might be worth listening to.. but he doesn't even have that right....), the Colorado Ranchers and other Business interests who are profit driven are the ones who call the shots..... and the Media steps right up to help em.....

3. Drugs.. Canadian Drugs are identical to US drugs. Why??? cause they are mostly made in the US.. ahhh duhhhh... and what does Bush stand up and say in front of the world with the FDA dummy right beside him " Ahh we don't believe Canadian Drugs are safe.. and that they have the same stringent controls we have" ... ok... whatever. Just proves that his IQ is only 92 and the FDA guy is about the same.

4. Ships/ Aircraft/ Military Hardware etc... it all has to be made in the US.. why... to protect US jobs. OK.. fine protect US Jobs.. but don't take away Canadian Jobs based on bullcrap. Bomarcs for the Arrow??? I don't think so. We have to buy US equipment when ours was superior.. ??? Now that we don't have a military manufacturing base as we once did.. we are forced to buy US at grossly inflated prices.. why.. so the US can keep jobs. But guess what.. most of it is being outsourced to other countries by US Corporations.. so who is getting protected??? Why must we buy US ships.. why can't the US buy Canadian Ships.... ---- ooops I forgot.. US Corporations who want to protect their profits and who now after shutting down Canadian Shipbuilding (which was second only to the US in worldwide quality), now outsources their excess tonnage needs to where??? China, Korea, Finland... damn that ticks me off...

Then, on 9/11... when Canada steps up to the plate to help the US, and we open our hearts and our homes AND our wallets to help US citizens when the airspace was shut down entirely within the hour.. who does Bush thank Everybody but us...

Nuts We can't win no matter what we do.. sometimes I wonder why we even bother.... it is really frustrating...

Good thing we have a very LARGE sense of humour... Sometimes I really dislike politics... even though I really love it.

BTW... I am thankful for all of our Veterans both US and Canadian.. by whose great sacrifice we can all still have the freedoms to speak our mind without fear of reprisal by a state secret police... like my Dad had to put up with...

Thanks to each and every one of them -- those who have gone before, and thanks to those who will carry the torch in the future..

[Eugene]

Rudi: Interesting comments. Some issues I was aware of, some not.

NAFTA isn't such a hot deal for the average US worker. First, corporations built manufacturing plants in Mexico. Then moved the Mexican plants to the far east.

As far as the American worker getting shafted. The prime responsibility is the US tax laws concerning corporations. It's much cheaper for corporations to have their headquarters and financial dealings off shore than to keep them in the US. It's also cheaper to have goods manufactured overseas, the shipped back to the US than to manufacturer in the US. I used to work for a book publishing firm. Most materials (books) sold were printed overseas. I didn't and don't understand. There are two major printers within 3 miles of the centeral warehouse and they couldn't compete with foreign printers. Something else my employer did was to print in the far east, ship and store in the midwest, then transship to Australia and New Zealand.

Drugs imported from Canada. I don't know if this is factual. I have heard that the US military, when outside the US, uses and perscribes drugs manufactured by notable foreign (usually local ) companies. Also, the same problem exists with Mexican drugs, of course most of the drugs are manufactured by US firms.

I'll give you your point of paying US taxes when you are a Canadian. However, I own stock in three Canadian companies. I have to pay a small tax to Canada on dividends. Also all three Canadian companies own property in the US. One company, the only piece of property in Canada is a room in an office building, the company headquarters.

One of my Canadian stocks, long shot, on the Toronto stock exchange CLL.TO.

Eugene

[Boss Hog]

Yeah, George, I'm just kidding. At first glance at your pic I thought it was a Chrysler Imerial, You know, I really miss the days when each vehicle had a different look, a different character. I was at an auction yesterday and saw a set of '58 Chevy Belair tailights. I wonder how many people on this forum would know how to tell the difference in taillights of a Biscayne, Belair, and an Impala of that year?

Larry

Biscayne 1 runnung light 1 back up light each side no crome
Beliar[last years top of the line] 1 running light 1 backup light each side some crome Impalia 2 running lights 1 backup light lot a crome each side
I think been a long time
David

[Eugene]

And one more reason US companies take their manufacturing off shore.

Canoe. World Wildlife Fund claims Alberta oil sands a threat to global warming.

In almost every instance when a corporation wants to build a new plant, or update their facilities an environmental organization files lawsuits and injunctions tying up the propose project for years and years. Even if the corporation eventually wins the continued barage of lawsuits, it has cost the corporation millions defending itself.

Eugene